Greg Stolze: Forums

Sorry for the cross-post.

Ok, so I am going to run DUNE. I'm huge fan of the books and have persuaded a group to try something other than Vampire. I figure the politics of my proposed game isn't so far from what they are used to but is significantly different to be a nice change.

I was going to use FATE but it wasn't working as really capturing the spirit of the universe in my mind so I decided to hack REIGN. I'm pretty much complete but I am having issues with the way Holtzman Shields work. Here's what I have so far:

1. Height = Quality/Precision of a strike and Reaction Speed (Hit locations are out)

2. Weapons categorised as Low Velocity and High Velocity. HV weapons basically are so fast by their very nature or require such high kinetic energy to be effective that Shields just block them. LV can make Slow Attacks.

3. Shields give a Height penalty due to their setting (1 to 10). How long their charge lasts depends on setting. Anyone can use an LV weapon to make a Slow Attack. Take a 1d penalty and you automatically Squish. If your Height is positive, you do damage.

4. People trained in the Shield Fighting Discipline can be Extra Slow (-2 dice pool and you must Squish twice).

5. The logic here is that BEFORE you roll your die, you have to decide how much you are going to "pull your blow", effectively gambling that you are going to roll enough Width to do damage. If you do a normal slow attack, you are only gambling 1 point of Width for +2 Height, increasing your chances to do damage from 0% to 20%. Going extra slow means you're gambling that not only are you going to roll at least a Width of 3 but you're actually giving yourself less dice to do it with. Conversely, you are giving yourself a 40% chance of doing damage. Plus, the penalties mean you won't be using any Expert or Master Die you might have.

6. For me, those odds work properly. Only really skilled duelists are going to get through a full-strength dueling shield (or just wait 10 minutes for the charge to run out ).

The issue I'm having is that something doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps it's the relationship between Height and defeating shields (Height is more random than Width).

Perhaps I don't like just saying point blank "HV weapons are right" (I think part of me wants a sword or halberd to penetrate a low setting shield).

Maybe it's fine and I'm worrying over nothing.

Any input would be great!

I don't think a lot of people are going to go Extra Slow if it's going to demand a Width 3 set to do anything. They're much rarer.

What about using a Slow factor the way WT does it? If you're really good, you attack every other round with some kind of bonus.

-G.

Hmmm. I'd not considered using the Slow trait. You'd have thought that was obvious wouldn't you?

I'm not sure that's be worthwhile, implementing as is. Consider two opponent's both taking Slow Attacks and both of them spending actions of doing nothing It doesn't sound an exciting combat. But you have given me an idea.

Adapting the Slow trait for a speedier combat (how about that for a paradoxical statement).

As suggested, attacks are either High Velocity or Low Velocity.

If we make Speed a standard rating. High Velocity attacks are Speed 3, Low Velocity is Speed 2. Higher Speeds resolve before lower. You compare Heights as normal. Gobble Dice of a lower Speed lose 1 Width per difference in Speed. Sets reduced below 2 don't break.

For example, Guy A attacks Guy B with a pistol using a bit of Matrix-style Gun Fu (Speed 3). Guy B dodges (Speed 2). Guy A gets 2x5. Guy B gets 2x7. Guy A is 1 slower, so loses 1 W. They only gobble 1 die.

A Slow Attack is a Speed 1, take a -1d penalty but add 2 Height. An Extra Slow Attack is Speed 0, -2d and add 4 Height.

Actually, you can take a -1d penalty to add 1 or subtract 1 from Speed in combat (so throwing yourself to the ground against a ranged attack, slow/measured attack, faster attacks etc).

I wouldn't worry to much, Herbert created the Holzmann shield to stop wars being fought with bullets or lasers.

Just run with hand-to-hand combat as is and give an AR4 against anything that moves faster than an arrow.

If I recall, it does make the shieldee slippery so there might be some sort of bonus against being tackled.

C.

Hey

Actually, you do raise a valid point: what was the point of having shields in it? To make it a duelling culture.

So, yeah, you could just boil it down to Guns = No, Blades = Yes.

I've had to take a few liberties with shields purely because the books don't give a massive load of detail as to their prevalence and some minutiae (such as unarmed combat versus shields).

I think what I'm likely to do is dial back the mechanics on it. Rule that a shield is either on or off. It takes an action to switch it on. Normal ranged weapons are automatically defeated by a Shield. Melee combat occurs as normal, only with the following modifiers:

1. Slow Attack is a -2d manoeuvre.

2. I've created a Shield Fighting martial technique which simulates the conditioning of training to fight in a shield culture.

At level 1, the penalty is reduced to -1d.

If you have the technique on level 3, all your attacks are now Slow: it is no longer a manoeuvre and you waive the -2d penalty for a Slow Attack. But, literally all your melee attacks are Slow and you receive a -2d penalty for making normal speed attacks.

I think this is correct.



Drawing a sword and attacking reduces W by 1. Why not do the same with Holzmann shields?

Why penalise a Slow attack? By the rules the player should get an additional +1d to throw as per aiming rules.



I'd say level 1 of your H Shield martial path lets you turn on the shield and use it without losing the 1W off your attack set (like Path of the Razor Heart 1).

C.

There are two things at work here:

1. In the novels, shield fighting is all about the set up. To quote, "In shield fighting, one moves fast on defense, slow on attack ... Attack has the sole purpose of tricking the opponent into a misstep, setting him up for the attack sinister. The shield turns the fast blow, admits the slow kindjal!"

2. When Paul fights Jamis, the fight is prolonged and looks like Paul is toying with Jamis, because he's conditioned to make deliberately slow attacks.

I wanted to reflect these two things and a -2d penalty seemed enough that it would reduce any fighter's chances if they weren't shield trained. And then you can flip that to fighting when you aren't fighting with a shield.

I'll post the whole path later and you can critique it. You'll see how I've set up combat based around this technique.

FYI where it says "Special Die", I'm using a system where you purchase a rank in Special Dice (ED and MD). Ranks 1 through 4 give an Expert Die that starts at 7 but you can increase by 1 per rank after the roll (so ED 1 is an ED at 7, ED 2 is an ED that starts at 7 but can be an 8 etc). Rank 5 is a Master Die. Penalties and subtract to the Special Die rank first.

I thought this was a more fitting for a universe where people train from the age of 5 to do a job...

Shield Fighting: Swordmaster

Shields Up (1 Point): The Holtzman Shield is a powerful defensive tool, however, it is useless if not switched on.

You have trained with shields to the extent that it has become instinct for you to reach for the button at the first sign of trouble.

It does not cost you an action to activate your shield.

Fast on Defense (2 Points): The Holtzman Shield prohibits any fast moving object. The trained fighter knows that by making their own movements fast, they can add to the velocity of incoming strikes and thereby increasing the resistance of the shield.

When you make a parry, your sets ignore the Height of any attack they might block.

E.g. An opponent comes at you with a 2x7 attack. You roll your parry and score 2x4. Using your Fast on Defense, your ignore your opponent’s Height and thus can block his 2x7 with your 2x4.

Shield Conditioned (3 Points): You have trained in Shield Fighting since an early age. Such combat is now ingrained into your very nerves and musculature.

Your weapon skills are no longer limited by your Shield Fighting skill and you do not incur the -2d penalty when making a Slow Attack.

However, your training is so ingrained that you always fight as if you were Shield Fighting: all your attacks are automatically a slow and incur a -2d penalty when fighting against a non-shielded opponent.

Bi-Manual Fighting (4 Points): You are trained to utilise your off-hand in combat, either using a second weapon or allowing you to move your weapon to a to your off-hand, allowing you to attack from an expected direction.

You may either reduce the penalty for using your Off-Hand by 2.

Alternatively, if not fighting Bi-Manually, when you take a Feint action, you not only add 1d to your dice pool but also reduce an opponent’s die pool by 1d.

Attack Sinister (5 Points): Shield Fighting is as much about misdirection, setting up an opponent until you can deliver the final strike. If done correctly, your opponent will never see the Attack Sinister coming…

Every time you take a Feint action, instead of adding +1d, you receive +1 Special Die.

You may expressly combine this feat with Bi-Manual Fighting.